It was just before 9:00, and one of our neighbors was leaving the Commission meeting in a combination of boredom and disgust, when he uttered this word. The meeting had become unbearably bogged down, over nothing, and our neighbor couldn't stand it any more. Coincidentally, not five minutes before he left, I said almost the same thing. Except I inserted something between the un- and the -believable.
This meeting had no reason to slog as it did. It had no right. Everything-- well, almost everything-- was going great until Ordinance #1. The only snag that occurred before that was when Roxy Ross wanted to pull something from the Consent Agenda, because she wanted to draw attention to it. It was the minutes of the meeting of the Public Safety Advisory Board, and Roxy wanted to point out that two Commissioners had been in attendance, and that this created what could be a Sunshine meeting within the Board meeting, and it should have been announced that way. The problem was that Roxy was one of the Commissioners who was there, and Tracy Truppman was the other. And of course, Tracy took instant offense, decided she had to defend herself, and did it the way she always does it: she tried to dismiss or demean Roxy's having brought it up. So that wasted a few annoying minutes, but we were otherwise onto the Ordinances.
Ordinance #1 was a loser from the start. Everyone who commented on it in Public Comment panned it, and three of the Commissioners didn't like it, either. The problem was that it was Harvey Bilt's scheme, and this created a problem for his little team. The big team wasn't present, because Jenny Johnson-Sardella was somewhere or other, but not at the meeting. So Harvey's posse were supposed to be Tracy and Will Tudor. Will didn't like the Ordinance, either, and neither did Roxy. Tracy didn't like it-- there was nothing to recommend this Ordinance, which made no sense and accomplished nothing-- but she was stuck. She was at great pains to go against her boy, Harvey, but she couldn't bring herself to join him. So what should have been a very quick vote in opposition to this Ordinance dragged on for way too long, with Will rambling, Harvey defending and redefending, Roxy talking too much about it, and Tracy speaking against the Ordinance while simultaneously repeatedly apologizing to Harvey. Way...too...long. Not for Andrew Dunkeil, our attorney, though. He's on the clock. Keep on yammering, y'all.
Next, it was slightly less moronic, but also more nonsensical Ordinance #2. Hoo-boy. Should we refinance? Well, no. Clearly not. Roxy Ross made that crystal clear. Painfully crystal clear. It made no sense. The reason to refinance wasn't actually there, and it would have cost more than it would have saved. Just listen, kids. Rox is explaining it to you, making it as clear as it could possibly be, and she even got the Finance Director to see her point, and convinced him. Just realize it was a non-starter, and vote it down, so we can move on. Nope. On...and on...and on. And on. Over nothing, except perhaps Tracy's realization that she is out of her depth, does not know and understand the issues, and that Roxy is really the heart and sole of this Commission. Which is why it's so pervasively necessary to try to obliterate her. It was near the end of this soul-crushing discussion that our neighbor had more than enough and left. Although there was actually not too much left of the meeting.
But there was one moment of comic relief. Roxy had put on the Agenda a Resolution to name this year's BP delegate to the Florida League of Cities' annual conference in Hollywood. Well, you know Princess Tracy just had to be the delegate. She thought it was sort of like which pupil gets to bring the teacher an apple. Roxy offered to go, as she has always gone, but Tracy repeated-- three times, as the person sitting next to me counted-- that the Mayor (Princess Tracy, herself) should be the one to go and wear the prettiest dress, and have the nicest pigtails. In fact, Tracy thought the Resolution should be generalized, so that it's always the Mayor who gets to be the voting delegate. Well, Roxy had had enough. As she pointed out, she only has a few short months left on the Commission, and she let the Princess have her way. And Roxy mentioned, just in passing, that there was a stipend available for the delegate, so that half the expenses would be reimbursed. Tracy did this math in a hurry. She instantly realized that Roxy was saying the delegate has to pay something to be a delegate. She handed the honor immediately back to Roxy. What a devoted representative our Mayor is.
And what a gross waste of time this meeting was.
Unbelievable....I’m happy I didn’t pay a babysitter so I could be in attendance.
ReplyDeleteNothing is surprising anymore and I expect this idiocy from meetings.
Anyone who is just realizing the idiocy of BP's government is about 20 months late. Not you, Nicole, but many others who are just now realizing how our commission is wasting our money, our time, and our potential.
ReplyDeleteCorrection Fred. Although I periodically check in on board meetings, I have NOT been to a Public Safety Advisory Board (PSAB) Meeting. If any Commissioner should be there, I thought it should be Will for opening remarks and to thank the members since the PSAB was his idea.
ReplyDeleteI noted the Administrative lapse in posting the meeting but not the agenda, importantly, because board agenda typically include, "NOTICE: Two or more members of the Village of Biscayne Park Commission and other Village Board members may be in attendance."
On Monday I read the minutes of the Board's 5/30 meeting, which state that Mayor Tracy and Vice Mayor Will were in attendance (without an agenda to advise the public of a Sunshine meeting within the noticed PSAB), and that Mayor Tracy "provided much information regarding all the topics in discussion .... " Now I realized, the lapse was not only by Administrative, but remarks on matters of substance that may come for a vote before the Commission were made at a meeting with two Commission members present, and without notice to the public. Corrective behavior is required by Administration and by members of the Commission. Every member of the commission has a responsibility to avoid the appearance of impropriety; even inadvertent violations of Sunshine are civil infractions with penalties of up to $500; and, this setting may taint or even nullify the recommendations produced by the Board's discussion. Working within the rule of law, even the constraints of Sunshine, are important to me, and I felt it necessary draw attention to these lapses. Unfortunately, because of Sunshine Law, I can only communicate that message to fellow-commissioners at a public meeting.
A second teaching moment: Florida League of Cities (FLC) and the voting delegate. It really was not about appointing a delegate. Actually, as the only BP commissioner at the Conference by default I have been the voting delegate for several years.
The item was to remind fellow-Commissioners that each one of us MUST participate and gain the tools needed to fulfill the campaign promises made and oath taken upon entering office. FLC Annual Conference offers a 4-day opportunity, to get that formal training, as well as to informally learn from other city officials their issues and approaches to improve communities.
I regret if I didn't get these points across concisely last night. I usually don't like "Roxy talking too much."
At the risk of extending these remarks even longer, Fred, as a first time writer here, I want to thank you for your insightful and clever posts. I may not agree with some, but I do appreciate your dedication to our community. Roxy
Rox,
DeleteThanks for the response and the corrections. It seems Chuck and I were wrong. I misinterpreted which Commissioners were at the PSAB meeting. I thought the discussion suggested you were one of them, but I see I was wrong. Chuck, in his "public comments," reminded the Commission last night that the PSAB is supposed to function at the direction of the Commission, and he concluded they were not given direction by the Commission. But it turns out they were. Tracy and Will showed up at the same meeting at the same time (coincidentally, of course), and this technical minority of the Commission self-appointed as the functional unanimous majority of the Commission, and directed the PSAB. Where you quote the Board's minutes as having recorded that Tracy "provided much information regarding all the topics in discussion," Chuck, whom I encountered this AM while I was out walking, summarized that Tracy did most of the talking at the meeting. The two descriptions sound potentially the same. And it's clear that the Empress, Big Mama Truppman, is still in full flourish.
As for your comments about the FLC, and what electeds can learn from THOSE colleagues, our new autocratic regime does not concern itself with "promises made and oath[s] taken." The main promise Tracy made was to herself, and it was to get herself into the throne. The promises made by Jenny, Will, and Harvey were to serve her. "Listening to residents?" Oh, please. Stop. Making Village functioning more streamlined and less expensive? Not as far as I can tell. It looks more cumbersome (which is odd for a dictatorship) and more expensive. But I'm just in the peanut gallery, so who cares what I think?
Thanks for checking in after all this time. See you in the gallery in November.
Fred
PS, Rox, the reason I said you talked too much about the second Ordinance was that it was pretty quickly recognized, after you straightened everyone out, that we were not going forward with this. You suggested we not go forward, and at least Will agreed with you. Even Tracy understood that we were done with this topic for last night. But the chatter didn't stop, as it should have. It droned on, and you participated in restating what was already a very clear and convincing case, with which I'm not sure anyone disagreed. But I didn't mean to offend you.
DeleteFred
Fred, isn't this just reminiscent of most commission meetings? Mac, the incompetence of the commission and city management has been going on for years, not just 20 months. Newer residents and their vision are not represented by this commission, or any commission that I have witnessed over the past 7 years we have lived here. Let's only hope that new residents continue to move into the community and demand better leadership than we have today, that is our only hope. Sadly, the old establishment is complacent while watching their community slowly decay around them living day to day with no foresight or planning. New ideas and opinions are shut down quickly by a handful of residents that are threatened by change, and we have Tracy Truppman as mayor who continually violates the charter and has proven to be a complete failure. Once we hit rock bottom, we can only move forward or perhaps start writing Biscayne Park's obituary.
ReplyDeleteGot it, Brad. But you're overlooking something.
DeleteYou and Brian have lived here, as you say, for seven years. You both always used to come to Commission meetings, no matter how poorly represented you now look back and conclude you were.
The Kuhls always, always came to meetings. From one Commission to the next, they were always there. They always complained and criticized every Commission, but they were always there.
The Andersons were always there. Bob, of course was a Commissioner all those years, but Janey always, always, always came. And after Bob wasn't a Commissioner any more, they both came.
Now, you and Brian don't come. The Kuhls don't come. The Andersons don't come.
Something has changed. It's not just the same old succession of Commissions that never represent the residents, as you summarize it. This one is different.
What do you think is going on? You're one of the markers who always used to come, and now doesn't come any more. You should know what happened.
Fred
Oh, and Mac always came to meetings. Not any more.
DeleteFred, nothing has changed and that's the problem. Why continue to try to help a community that won't see beyond themselves?
ReplyDeleteBrad,
DeleteYour complaint or criticism was that nothing ever changes. But you sat dutifully through two prior Commissions while nothing changed. Now, you don't come to meetings. Just a coincidence that you happened, after X number of years, to give up? Or is this Commission different, and does it deflate and destroy enthusiasm and interest in ways no other Commission did?
Fred
Albert Einstein said it best.... “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results”. Brian and I have lived in other communities where our commission and city management were true leaders and worked for the future of the whole community, and not just focused on the few individuals that may be inconvenienced due to changes implemented. Your question regarding "what's different with this commission" would best be explained by this clip .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w166-ljnIMU
DeleteSo Brad, you're saying it just happened to be now, with this Commission, that you felt that you were throwing good commitment and patience after bad. It's just a coincidence that it happened to strike you that way now, while this Commission happened to be in office.
DeleteAnd presumably, it's even more coincidental that Mac Kennedy, who's been here a shorter time than you, happened to feel the same way at the same time (he's less insane than you are), and the Kuhls, Andersons, and Dan Keys, who have been here far, far longer than you have, also happened, just by dumb coincidence, to come to the same conclusion at the same time (they're much more insane than you are).
Well, I suppose that could be a possibility. It seems really, really unlikely, but that seems to be what you're saying.
Fred
Fred, you are right that this commission was the tipping point for us. Out of the three commissions which we have experienced, Tracy and her circus clowns are by far the worst. One can only disengage when you have a community that is complacent with it's failures and has no vision for the future of the community.
DeleteFred, no offense taken.
ReplyDeleteI've asked for a BP Election Message to be posted to the website, but since I can't seem to make it happen, I hope you don't mind my using your space to remind the community, and particularly those that want to be an agent for the change they want to see:
THERE WILL BE A MUNICIPAL ELECTION IN BISCAYNE PARK THIS YEAR:
8/13 to 8/27 is the period within which candidates must quality to run
10/9 is the last day to register to vote in that election
11/5/2018 is Election Day (early and mail voting generally available 2 weeks prior)
Rox,
DeleteThis is not my space. It's your space. It's our space. It's everyone's space. This blog, and probably all blogs, is set up to be registered to the person who started it. I was that person. But I am not in any way territorial about it. I happily share this space with everyone who wants to use it. I will admit I sort of established two rules for use of this space. One is that discussions are about topic of interest to BP residents. The other is that any author let me know immediately when he or she posts something, so I can send out an announcement. This only serves to alert people on my circulation, who might be interested in the kinds of topics posted here. But anyone who posts anything doesn't have to have that communicated to the people on my circulation, and any other author can alert his or her own circulation.
So I'm going to have the blog send you an invitation to be a guest author. This allows you full access to this blog, and you can post anything you like. You can reiterate and expand upon what you just said. Anything you want.
Fred
Gary and I have lived here for a long time. We're guilty. We haven't been happy with the performance of several of our Village Managers and many of our Commissioners. We were regular attendees at Commission Meetings and many times voiced our concerns about issues in the Village - Code Compliance, our Codes, road maintenance, our medians our lack of planning. We both served on boards to bring about changes. We wrote to Commissioners and spoke at meetings to bring up issues and hopefully find ways to improve things and not just let things get worse.
ReplyDeleteAccording to you, Fred, we complained and criticized. According to Brad, if you're not a recent home buyer you're complacent and happy to watch the community slowly decay. If you want things to get better you have to identify what's not working. Sometimes that can be a Village manager or Commissioner. Sometimes it's a poorly written code or lack of goals.
I'm only writing now because you asked why we stopped coming to meetings. When a Commission doesn't even attempt to accomplish anything in almost two years and when Commissioners and the Village Manager don't respond to emails from residents it's time to stop wasting our time.
Barbara,
DeleteYou are not guilty. You and Gary are markers. You are indicators. You are bellwethers. When the Kuhls don't show up for Commission meetings, with their record of dedication, something is going on. Something is wrong.
You've never been happy with anyone, at least as long as I've known you. You've complained about and criticized every Commission. I didn't understand this for what it was when I thought you supported me, but you complained about the Commission of which I was a part, and about me, exactly as you complained about and criticized every other Commission. It's what you do. There's often a kernel of wisdom in your complaints and criticisms, but they are unvarying. And you're always faithfully there to make them. Until now. As I said to Brad, something is now different.
Fred
PS: I didn't ask why you stopped coming. I asked Brad why he stopped coming. I just said he wasn't the only one who stopped, and I gave you and the Andersons and Mac Kennedy as other examples of people who stopped coming. And now that you've explained, I still don't know why you stopped coming, except for what seems obvious: this Commission is different. It's different for all of us. It is deadening, deflating, and crushing in ways no other Commission has ever been, even for the people who expect what Brad and you and Mac do. It's been beaten out of many of us by this Commission. This is worse than Bernard and Cooper, worse than Jacobs, Cooper, and Watts. This one is the one that killed it for the Kuhls, the Andersons, Mac Kennedy, and maybe others. Art Gonzalez came for a while. Gone now.
Excellent response, Barbara!
ReplyDeleteYes, and Dan Keys, who was also unwaveringly faithful about attending Commission meetings, until this Commission.
DeleteFred
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ReplyDeleteYes, Barbara, yes. And, it's time to kick the bums out, as they say. Drain the swamp, as it were. The first time our mayor showed her true colors, I publicly voiced my lack of confidence in her and asked her to step down. (It was so clear from the very start what we were in store for.) I've also gone on record with my disdain for the others and specifically their lack of vision or plan, which is about the most basic thing a commission should formulate on day one. It's not lofty stuff ... it's rudimentary, that is if you mean to accomplish anything with any measure of transparency and efficiency. I'm not saying, "I told you so," (although I did). I'm simply saying, it's time for the chorus to get bigger and louder. My lack of attendance at commission meetings is somewhat due to work commitments, but they all certainly know my feelings about topics before them via email, text and personal conversations. They may not like my tone or choice of words, but c'est la vie, first amendment, etc. At least they don’t wonder what I think. I'm equally concerned about what IS happening and what's NOT. The potential in BP is enormous and easy to realize, given our small size, and it's so sad to see that slip between our fingers month after month while Tracy drones and the others nod, if they show up at all. Some will hate to hear this next part, but I also agree with Brad that newer residents (with larger financial investments) likely see that more evidently with our fresh eyes and bigger checks for taxes, and given that some of us moved here from other places that enforce community standards and accomplish more, if not merely looking better from the outside (bare minimal standards). We really have a choice to be the junior Miami Shores or the junior NoMi. That’s an easy choice for me when I close my eyes and imagine or merely walk out of my driveway and look around. Or, we could be our own lovely little brand (yikes, that word!), An Oasis in the Heart of Miami, with our unique vision and goals and standards. That takes true leadership and vision, which we sorely lack now
ReplyDeleteJared and I have zero excitement to attend meetings. I
ReplyDeleteused to pencil in the meetings, write down my concerns prior, Jared and I would discuss the meetings afterwards.
Now...there’s nothing less appealing than going to a commission meeting.
What I think is different is prior commissions, at least got SOMETHING accomplished. It seems meeting and after meeting, NOTHING gets accomplished, none of residents conderna are actually addressed by commission with an idea, an answer, a result.
NOTHING happens.
At lest I felt with prior commissions, at least two people had open ears and followed up. We were able to see commissioners with differing views and opinions.
This commission is a dictatorship.
It’s apparent they’re all in cahoots, except Roxy Ross, who’s been outcasted.
It’s gross for me to sit there and watch people, our neighbors, our commission treat residents, their neighbors as if we’re less than smart. It feels as if they think they know what’s best for us and yet the only thing they’ve attacked is open cat feeding.
It’s insultig, its embarrassing and makes my nostrils flare.
Now I’d like to address Brads and Mac’s comments about new residents caring more and old residents now. I think the message both of them are conveying are ( at least my thoughts on this issue )
Is that there are SO MANY neighbors that DO NOT speak up,’attend anything or even know we have a commission. They are the majority, the silent majority. Then we have long time residents that are unhappy with the commission, long term residents that don’t mind the commission because they see BP as still being the awesome village it always was (regardless if it isn’t that way anymore )
Then there’s us newbies who paid premiums for houses (part of the market and times, not at all saying those who paid more have a larger say).
I can understand , writing a $8,000-$12,000 tax checks yearly and wondering WHAT ARE WE GETTING?!?!
Jared and I don’t pay nearly that in taxes, I still write our $2,500 tax check and think...,ugh I wouldn’t mind paying more to have amenities like miami shores has. I still have the feeling of “ugh what am I getting?” Other than the garbage pickup, public works, police”
IN other words, I pay less taxes and I’m annoyed with what’s given to me for the check.
If I had to pay $10,000 each year, I’d be FURIOUS.
Granted, newbies know what the taxes will be prior to purchasing. My thought process as may be others, was always “there’s no where else we can buy a house with this size lot, in a safe neighborhood for this price, so let’s buy the house, let’s be get involved and start making positive changes to make the village even better and more enjoyable for residents “
So when newbies get involved, try to make positive additions to the village and are shot down, insulted and dismissed. It’s gross. It’s frutrating and then I’d think they throw their hands and in the air and say something along the lines of “to hell with you all, I’ll enjoy my home and let the town crumble around me because clearly my ideals, thoughts, volunteer efforts and time are not wanted. Clearly I’m the idiot for wanting streets you can rollerblade on, or a walking path for safety down medians, or a maintained rec center that offers activities that families and single residents can use and actually WANT to Use.
So as I ramble, I think those are all thoughts newbies and oldies have. And again, the commission blatantly ignores us.
Right, Brad, I also forgot to mention Nicole and Jared. They stopped coming, too. Nicole explains why. Does that resonate with you? Or is that just Nicole talking, and for the rest of you, it's all just an amazing coincidence, that everyone happened to have the same feeling about BP government in general, and it just happened, by chance, to occur in the past year or so?
DeleteNicole, the concept of a "silent majority" is tricky. It sounds like it has a positive and intentional sentiment to it, but I think it doesn't. I think it's mostly people who really don't care. Some of them maybe don't care for the reason you explain at the end of your comment-- they just gave up-- and some don't care, because they never cared. They wanted a place to live, to own or rent their homes, and what's of interest to them is having a place for their stuff and where they can cook, sleep, and eat. That's why most people don't vote. As crazy as it sounds, they really don't care. And they don't have enough sophistication to try to understand the implications of one elected versus another.
I completely agree that what we're experiencing now is, exactly as you put it, infuriating. We're all helpless, for the next few months. Then, we can rise up, and get relief. But remember the "silent majority" who fundamentally don't care. They don't care about the potholes (some were fixed in the past couple of months!), the medians, or anything. If you tell them Tracy Truppman is a dictator, and Jenny, Will, and Harvey are mindless stooges, they won't know what you're talking about (or who these people are), and they'll observe that everything is in the same (rundown) condition it's been for a long time, so what's the problem?
By the way, new homeowners do not know what the tax bill will be. They know what it just was. But it changes, because the assessed value of the property changes, because of the purchase they just made. I don't know what the people who owned my house just before I did paid in taxes. I overpaid for the house, because I bought it in '05, and I don't remember my first bill. It got as high as about $5800, until the economy crashed. I don't remember if the first low bill was in '08 or '09, but it was about $3000. It's a little more than that now, because it goes up slowly due to the homestead exemption, and that exemption has also exempted a greater amount of the value. But I agree with you: I'd happily pay more, if I got more. And, as you say, with the current Commission, we get nothing.
New property owners are cherished, not only because as prices generally rise, they pay more in taxes, but because they are the new blood of the neighborhood. We are very grateful for you.
Fred
I didn’t mean “silent majority” to be negative or positive, it just is. Maybe with work and families, the local government is not as important as a once a month date night with husband. I think some of the silent majority simply just don’t care and others maybe do care but are simply too busy.
DeleteRegardless, decisions in this town are not made for the majority anyways. Decisions are always made to accommodate the minority (rolling my eyes)
Good point about owners not knowing taxes. I hadn’t thought of that.
It boggles my mind as to why our elected officials are so against positive additions or rather maintenance to our village is so frowned upon.
Residents wanting to beautify medians, update rec center, fixing roads for not only enjoyment reasons but safety! (Jared sprained his ankle on a pot hole by tripping. Costing us $350 & having to baby him and Mason for two weeks 😂)
It’s hard for me to get past that. We’re dealing with people who do not want any thing to change, update etc. it’s like if we mentally make ourselves believe we’re in Mayberry, 1965.
Well we’re not, the world is rapidly changing around us. Trust me, I want to desperately hold on to Mayberry until my knuckles bleed. But we still have to plan and be proactive to prevent our town going down the tubes.
Planning and action. Two words that are sooo feared and avoided in this commission.
You should be rolling your eyes. It's a terrible thing.
DeleteHere's the thing about most elected officials. They want to get re-elected, and they don't want people mad at them. So they generally tend to try not to do anything. If you do anything, no matter what you do, someone will be mad at you. That's why we all most commonly see very little from government.
Don't cling to Mayberry. It's not Mayberry. If Mayberry ever had charm, that charm has given way to something else that we all act as if we prefer. If we didn't, we'd still be in Mayberry.
You could not be more right about the two most feared words in this Commission. And Mac will encourage you to add vision.
Fred
Thanks for recognizing that newer residents foot more of the bills around here, Fred. When I mentioned that to one commissioner, he argued that long-term residents actually pay more because they have been paying for years. Well, that would make sense if their money had been stocking a massive reserve account (savings) or being used for capital gains or anything progressive that increased the total community value and/or quality of life. Neither is the case in BP v2018. Unless there's a closet full of 20s in village hall that we don't know about, BP, for all intents and purposes, lives paycheck to paycheck. Anything extra isn't significant enough to make that commissioner's logic make sense. We each contribute every year, then we move on to the next year. This year, Dan and I paid nearly $8,000 in taxes. For that, I expect a competent commission, a mayor with a vision and a plan to execute, safer streets, code enforcement so I don't have to walk past Ma and Pa Kettle's house (just aged myself, google it) ... and if Harvey's going to promote feral cats to roam freely, then public works should come to our house every morning and pick up the cat shit and piss-soaked mulch from my gardens. For $8K, that's fair.
ReplyDeleteWhoever told you the newcomers don't do the heavy fiscal lifting around here, and in every community, was either not aware or was selfish and embarrassed.
DeleteWhatever the old-timers with homestead exemptions pay in taxes is based on an initial assessment a long time ago, and a limited increase by 3% per year, maximum. Costs go up a lot faster than that, and it's the newcomers, with their higher purchase prices, who make up the difference.
Fred
PS: The house in the next block from me appears to have sold. I was wondering how the developer could afford to hang on to it so long, with what I mistakenly thought was a very high property tax. But the realtor reminded me that the developer was paying the old property tax, because until the new house sold, the assessed value was the old assessed value, regardless of how much was spent to build the new house, or how much it would cost when it sold.
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DeleteThe house you mention on your street is listed for rent on Zillow at 6K per month.
DeleteMac, you made me laugh out loud.
ReplyDeleteFred, an “investor” house is not entitled to homestead exemption or the protections of the Save our Homes constitutional mandate. Their assessments go up and down with the market.
ReplyDeleteFred and Nicole: a new prospective owner can easily calculate what their taxes will be by finding out what the cumulative millage rate is of all of the taxing bodies. For BP, it has bee around 25 mills or $2500 per $100,000 of value. If the purchaser will be living in the property, they will be entitled to homestead exemption of $50,000 off of the assessed value and I believe there is another $25,000 exemption if you are over a certain age.
DeleteDan,
DeleteYou can know what you're paying for the property, and you can know what amounts will be exempted, as you illustrate. What you can't know is what the assessed value will be, according to the county. And it is on that unknown assessed value, minus the exempted amounts, that the tax will be figured. You're certainly right that you can know what the tax rates of the municipality, county, and school board were for the past year. In the case of BP, if you know it's been 9.7 mills for several years, you can guess it might be 9.7 mills next year, too. Which maybe it will, or maybe it won't. But the fly in the ointment is the assessed value.
Fred
Also, Dan, you're right that a property only qualifies for a homestead exemption, if the owner lives in it as his or her primary residence. So an investor cannot get a homestead exemption on a property in which he or she is only investing, but in which he or she is not living. But the tax, whether "homesteaded" or not, is based on the assessed value of the property (without the 3% cap, if the property is not homesteaded), and that value is not established until the property is registered with the county. If you buy a plot of land, or plot with a building on it, and you build or replace, but you do not sell the property (yet), a new value has not been established, and it is not registered as such with the county. You might argue that permits could establish a likely value, or even that "comparables," where what is compared is nearby properties with the same features as those represented by the permits, but that's not apparently the system used. There is no new value, until there is a sale. The value is the old value.
DeleteIn the case of the property in the block next to mine, what was there was a piece of land with a tear-down house which had its own assessed value. That is the taxing value. The developer did not, of course, homestead it, since he didn't live there. He did tear down the old house, and he built on the land whatever he built on it. But the registered value is still what it was. That will change dramatically the day he sells the house. What's interesting, and I don't know the rules for it, is that he has reportedly now rented the new house. I don't know if that fact allows the county to reassess the value of the property.
Fred
Another question to which I don't know the answer is what is the value on which the tax is now assessed for that property. There's a nice, new, and eventually expensive house on the land now. But that house has not been registered for valuating purposes with the county yet. That will happen, when it is sold. The builder/developer bought a property with land and a tear-down house. The question is what is the value of THAT property, the one that is the basis for the county's valuation. Is it the original value of a piece of land with whatever house was on it, in BP? Or is it much less than that, because the house, even if it was listed as a 2/2, 3/2, or whatever, was condemned and a tear-down, and worth much less than any other, normal, comparable 2/2, 3/2, etc, and it was purchased for much less than would have been a good house of that category on the same piece of land?
DeleteObviously, there is a rule for this kind of situation, and I don't know what the rule is. Any realtor will know.
Fred
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ReplyDeleteDan, I thought there was a way to guesstimate taxes. Great explanation on how to break it down. Thank you !
ReplyDeleteA few comments.
ReplyDeleteFirst just to confirm, I was at both PSAB meetings, so Fred, you must have misunderstood me, at both meetings Tracy and Will attended and no other elected official, and at both meetings, Tracy spent a large part of the time providing info and suggestions. Will said little if anything that I recall and this was the correct behavior for an elected official in my opinion.
At the first meeting, May 30th, it was somewhat chaotic, the board didn’t have any direction and the few members of the audience in attendance were joining in the chaos, including Tracy, as stated above. The discussion started to focus on traffic calming devices such as speed bumps, street closures, etc. At some point, I advised the board of the existence of past traffic studies, as I thought it might be useful to look them over before this board travels down a road already traveled. The Chair agreed, and my recollection was no action was taken other than to get some of the past traffic studies to review.
At the second meeting, June 27th, I spoke at public comment and advised them that since they had still not received proper instructions in the sunshine law and had not received any direction from the Commission they really shouldn’t be going into any detail discussions and that someone from the board should go to the next Commission meeting and get direction. I also objected that an agenda had not been published and posted before either meeting. Tracy was somewhat dismissive of what I said, and I beleive she suggested that it was ok for the board to have some discussions and come to the Commission with a laundry list of ideas, so the meeting proceeded and that’s how it went.
I should add that the Manager was also present at both meetings, so he witnessed all of this and didn’t seem to understand or agree with me, that at best, to move forward with the second meeting was bad practice and procedure. It didn’t occur to me at the time that a meeting, not properly noticed, attended by two or more elected officials was a possible sunshine violation.
I looked up the house down the street from you Fred. For 2018, as of Jan 1, 2018 the market value is $810K, for 2017 the market value was raised to $763K as of Jan 1, 2017, for 2016 as of Jan 1, 2016 the market value was $136K no exemptions are reflected on the property.
Nicole and Fred, there is a tax estimator on the County web site.
Dan, the senior exemption for those over 65 is $50K, but it has certain limitations based on annual income and value of the property when applied for.
Thanks, Chuck.
DeleteAs for the house down the street from me, anyone interested in it before 1/1/17 would have thought the "value" (assessed value?) was $136K. An attempt to estimate the property tax would have been way off. Maybe the county's online tax estimator would have helped, or maybe it wouldn't have. As of 1/1/17, the county's valuation ("assessed value") was $763K. The house was not sold (and it still hasn't been sold), but the next year, it was $810K. The current asking price, I'm told, is $1.2M. I have no idea on what these estimated values are based (frankly, I doubt there are any BP "comparables"), and I don't know whether a new buyer would be willing to assume they are in any sense correct. It is in no way unknown that people disagree with assessed valuations assigned by municipalities. So, it sounds like there could be a basis for a rough guess (or an exact one, at a moment in time, if the buyer doesn't disagree), but this is not the same as knowing how much you will pay in property tax. Unless you accept the county's valuation, and it doesn't change by the time you get the homestead exemption. And it isn't changed by the fact that you paid more than the house was valued at.
Fred
Fred,
DeleteIf you are buying a house for $800,000 that last sold for $85,000 in 1970, for instance, you can do a quick guesstimate based on the purchase price. You can’t assume that the taxes in the future will be based on the $85,000 number. Presumably the $800,000 (market value) you are paying, will be close to the new assessed value that you will be taxed on. The assessed value will likely be lower, but you are going to be a lot closer by doing the estimate.
Dan,
DeleteI wonder where my collection of tax records since I bought my house in 2005 went. I can find some of the stubs, but not all the way back. What I can tell you is this. I paid $380K for the house. I have done some projects (roof, and some other things) with permits. The last county assessment, for 2017, was $156K. I don't know what were the assessments when I paid $380K, or what it went down to when the economy crashed in about '08. Since my tax was much lower, then the assessment had to have gone down. My point is that the purchase price, as Chuck says below, is not a guide as to the assessed value. There are lots of stories of people who appeal the valuations, because they consider them inflated. Mine is clearly deflated. You'd like to think these valuations are straightforward, but they're just not.
Fred
Fred, it is straight forward that you can get a lot closer to your new taxes by doing the estimate than by assuming they will be stay at the level they are upon purchase. That was the simple point that you are having difficulty acknowledging as factual. I know, you are just being Fred, so I’ll forgive you again.
DeleteThe realizable market value/sales price for a property and the market value assigned by the County can be significantly different as you indicate.
ReplyDelete